John Jantsch (00:00.866)
Hey and welcome to a different episode of the Duct Tape Advertising Podcast. That is John Jantsch. My visitor at present is Sara Nay. Sara is the CEO of Duct Tape Advertising, the place she spent over 15 years serving to small companies construct strategy-first advertising and marketing techniques that really work. Now being my daughter, Sarah has lived the small enterprise actuality from each angle as an adolescent, as a group member, as a fractional CMO, and now because the CEO. In her new e-book,
Unchained, she makes the case that conventional company mannequin is damaged, each for the shoppers and companies and lays out a sensible AI enabled technique first method she calls the anti-agency mannequin. We’ll contact on that. Permission helps small enterprise house owners cease renting their advertising and marketing and begin proudly owning it. Unchained, breaking free from damaged advertising and marketing fashions. So Sarah, welcome to the present.
Sara Nay (00:53.858)
Thanks for having me on.
John Jantsch (00:55.778)
So that you and I’ve been speaking about advertising and marketing fashions for a very long time. Was there a time if you form of stated, you already know what, the company mannequin is damaged and I acquired to create one thing completely different?
Sara Nay (01:06.455)
Yeah, I imply, as you talked about within the introduction, I have been a part of the company house for about 15 years. And in that journey, I’ve moved from intern to neighborhood supervisor, account supervisor, fractional CMO for our shoppers amongst different roles. And so I’ve actually been in all of the completely different areas of the company house. And all through that journey, there’s positively been occasions the place I’ve observed issues that did not fairly really feel proper within the company house. And even additional than that,
there have been a number of moments over the past 15 years the place I have been burnt out and getting ready to saying, does this make sense to pursue much more, even additional? And so I’ve lived lots of challenges alongside the way in which and there is no secret within the challenges I’ve seen. suppose lots of people expertise this within the company house. And so beginning on that facet, on the company facet of issues, there’s challenges with assembly shopper calls for and managing scope creep and scaling and sustaining profitability and
retaining nice expertise and people are lots of the issues that I’ve heard from different company house owners fighting, however I’ve additionally skilled it myself. Additionally in my roles, I have been on within the gross sales facet of our enterprise for some time now. So I’ve spoken with a whole bunch of small enterprise house owners who’ve labored with completely different companies or outsourced options over these years. And I’ve heard all of their tales of
issues alongside the traces of selling would not work or I am paying this company for X and I do not know if I am getting outcomes or if something’s taking place with my advertising and marketing efforts. And so there’s been lots of this occurring for years within the company house. However I feel it is turning into extra extra heightened now with the evolution of AI.
John Jantsch (02:49.518)
So that you truly use the time period anti-agency mannequin. Now know you are not an company hater. so, so what makes this anti or, and never only a higher company.
Sara Nay (03:02.379)
Yeah. So the entire play with the anti-agency mannequin, as you recognized, like clearly we’re not anti-agency. We’re an company ourselves. Now we have been for 31 years. We love companies. And so I do preserve, I preserve explaining that as a result of I do not need folks to suppose this e-book is towards companies, however what it is with the anti-agency, what it is saying is the mannequin is damaged basically for among the factors that I had highlighted only a second in the past. So it is anti-agency mannequin particularly.
And so the way in which we’ve got been doing and functioning for years as companies had been being pressured in some methods to evolve due to the evolution of AI. so beforehand to AI, it made sense for companies to carry onto issues like advertising and marketing, execution, content material, social, web optimization, paid advertisements, the entire execution parts. However with the evolution of AI, I imagine small companies are capable of take a few of that stuff in-house.
They nonetheless want strategic management and path, however they now have a possibility to remain somewhat bit extra lean with their in-house advertising and marketing group by layering in AI techniques beneath them to assist with the heavy lifting of execution. And in order that’s the entire thought of cease renting your advertising and marketing and taking again possession of your advertising and marketing. You continue to want technique. You continue to want path. You continue to want management.
However now you possibly can construct a advertising and marketing division or group that could be a bit leaner as a result of they’re overseeing orchestration of selling, which is completed by AI techniques.
John Jantsch (04:39.086)
So one of many stuff you and I speak about loads, trigger I say it on a regular basis is I, you already know, I have been doing this 30 years and whereas lots of new shiny issues have come alongside, the basics of selling have not likely modified or what we’re right here to do as entrepreneurs has not likely modified that a lot. What timeless ideas do you suppose from, our system? As you already know, it is nonetheless labored at present.
Sara Nay (04:59.085)
Yeah. And so that is the second actually part of the e-book we get into the timeless after the intro and all of that, we get into the timeless ideas. And so among the issues that I contact on there are issues like goal market, figuring out your shoppers on a really deep degree. I feel that is turning into even an increasing number of necessary with the evolution of AI, as a result of what I see is lots of small companies bringing in one thing like a chat, GBT or a clod or no matter their instrument of selections. And so they’ll begin similar to,
creating content material and so it is far and wide. It is not constant. It is not on on model. And so in your authentic e-book duct tape advertising and marketing, you talked loads about figuring out your ideally suited shopper on a deep degree, understanding them emotionally, what retains them up at night time, what drives them. And so with the evolution of AI, you continue to want to know your shoppers on a really deep degree. However then if you are going to usher in an AI instrument, you then want to coach the chat, you would be to your instrument of your selection that you just usher in.
on that info. So if you’re creating content material shifting ahead, you are creating content material that speaks to your ideally suited shopper on a deep degree and is not simply generic. One other timeless foundational precept is core messaging. We discuss loads about that over time. So figuring out your core message or we have talked loads about speaking brand as properly. And in order that’s actually figuring out what makes you distinctive, but additionally what messaging resonates with that ideally suited shopper.
That’s nonetheless extremely necessary at present, but it surely’s additionally necessary to take that messaging and practice your AI instruments of selection on that messaging as properly. So once more, you are not creating generic content material, you are creating content material that speaks to your ideally suited shoppers with the messaging you have recognized is absolutely necessary. And so these foundations are nonetheless the identical, however the way in which we’re utilizing them is evolving a bit due to the expertise that is now obtainable.
John Jantsch (06:48.733)
So, you already know, we have, we’re all seeing folks run into AI and similar to, look what it could do, makes life sooner, higher, cheaper. Um, the place do you suppose the hazard of this, that like eyes vast open, you already know, bounce in and begin utilizing the instruments? What do you suppose the hazard of that’s for a lot of small companies?
Sara Nay (07:07.987)
It complicates issues that causes confusion. causes inconsistency. It causes noise. It amplifies the chaos that is already there. It causes so many points for the interior group or the group utilizing this system, but additionally for the shoppers and prospects that you just’re placing out content material to as properly. And so it is inflicting confusion in each of these areas. And so lots of what I encourage small companies to do is take a step again.
John Jantsch (07:12.916)
amplifies the chaos that is already there, proper? Yeah.
Sara Nay (07:33.767)
And if you happen to’ve been following duct tape advertising and marketing for any time period, you have heard us say technique earlier than techniques. Nevertheless it’s now technique earlier than techniques and expertise is the dialog we’re having with shoppers. And so if you happen to’re excited about, okay, we should be utilizing AI instruments as an alternative of simply diving into instruments first, take a step again and reply some essential questions as to what is the enterprise truly attempting to perform? What is the advertising and marketing technique appear like based mostly on that?
What is the group technique or what’s our present group construction appear like? After which you possibly can say, okay, what instruments may help us accomplish our objectives? After which when you determine what the instruments are, you then want to coach the instruments in your technique that you’d have created to then get to the purpose the place you are able to execute on them effectively. So do not dive into instruments, take a step again, create the technique, after which reply the query of what instruments are gonna assist us get from the place we’re at present to the place we’re attempting to go.
John Jantsch (08:30.936)
So, you already know, the fractional CMO plus idea is a giant a part of our mannequin. what do you inform that small enterprise proprietor that is acquired form of a smaller funds and it is considering, I actually simply want anyone to do stuff reasonably than like, you already know, I can not actually afford or I, or possibly I am not large enough to even take into consideration the thought of getting fractional management. What do you say to that enterprise as to why they should possibly change their mindset?
Sara Nay (08:55.403)
Yeah, I imply, suppose, once more, I preserve going again to AI, but it surely’s inflicting small enterprise house owners or small companies a possibility that we have not had earlier than. so, you beforehand, let’s consider conventional advertising and marketing org chart. You’ll have a CMO in an organization and you then would have lots of completely different executors underneath them, basically. So that you’d have like a paid specialist, an electronic mail advertising and marketing specialist, a social, you already know, the entire completely different channels and classes. That is by no means actually been possible to small companies as a result of
they would not also have a funds for a CMO, not to mention all the opposite folks which are concerned in that story. And so I feel the perfect alternative that small companies have is true now by way of the org chart, as a result of you possibly can usher in a fractional CMO. So you are not paying a full-time wage. You are paying a set payment each single month. That fractional CMO is then tasked with creating the general technique, managing the funds, proudly owning the metrics.
overseeing the entire advertising and marketing division basically. After which underneath that fractional CMO, imagine as an alternative of, I do not know if we’re fairly there but, however the path I imagine we’re going is as an alternative of getting a specialist in all of the completely different channels, small companies can have advertising and marketing executors which are acquainted sufficient in writing nice copy and understanding social media, however they’re actually techniques oriented and expertise first folks.
the place you possibly can usher in AI techniques beneath them to assist them execute at a better degree than they’ve ever been earlier than. And so now you are getting a advertising and marketing org chart with all of those completely different roles that you just beforehand in all probability could not even take into consideration affording as a small enterprise.
John Jantsch (10:35.832)
So going again to the theme of renting, imply, the alternative of renting is proudly owning. and so to a big diploma, you already know, what you are describing there’s form of that path in the direction of proudly owning your, your advertising and marketing, you already know, as a enterprise, versus possibly it wasn’t even renting. was abdicating like going right here, you do it. I do not care what you are doing over there, however how does that change the enterprise house owners mindset by way of.
Sara Nay (10:54.124)
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Jantsch (11:05.262)
folks by way of construction, by way of course of, in the event that they’re truly, you already know, now they will have these folks of their group or they will have these features of their group. Who manages that? How do they rent for that? Are they, are they bringing in additional overhead that is smart for his or her enterprise if they will begin considering that means, or is that this the last word path to, actually scaling a enterprise?
Sara Nay (11:16.557)
It clearly relies on the enterprise state of affairs, income measurement, long-term progress objectives. And so there’s lots of components that I would want to think about to reply that particularly. However for me, if you happen to’re a small enterprise and also you’re trying to scale up,
if you’re doing a sure degree of income, you have been in enterprise for a number of years, for example you have handed the 1 million income mark, I feel it is time to get thinking about you want advertising and marketing management of some extent. And so when small companies scale as much as a sure level, in the event that they have not appeared for advertising and marketing management, the CEO turns into the CMO and so they both have advertising and marketing expertise or they be taught advertising and marketing. And now it is this mandatory evil that
they’re having to spend so much of their time on the place they by no means wished to turn out to be a CMO within the first place. And so if you happen to’re scaling up and you’ve got excessive progress objectives, on the lookout for somebody like a fractional CMO, I feel makes lots of sense as a result of the entire thought is because the CEO or founder, you keep in your zone of genius. You keep centered on the why behind you constructing the enterprise within the first place. you then… In promoting, yeah.
John Jantsch (12:34.798)
or in promoting, you already know, stuff that really goes to earn a living for the enterprise reasonably than you having to determine tips on how to handle the expertise.
Sara Nay (12:46.121)
Precisely. And you then usher in a fractional CMO or a advertising and marketing chief of some extent that then is tasked with what you recognized earlier by way of managing group, bringing in companions or hiring full-time group, operating the expertise, constructing the techniques and processes, operating the funds and the metrics. so the fractional CMO is absolutely tasked with main the advertising and marketing division and dealing alongside you that can assist you attain the precise enterprise objectives that you’d have laid out.
John Jantsch (13:15.566)
, if anyone, whoever you are working with goes to deliver you technique first, you already know, as step one, it would not actually matter what you name that particular person, proper? What their position is, proper? I imply, it is actually extra the thought of considering technique first, is not
Sara Nay (13:21.901)
Yeah.
Sara Nay (13:31.137)
Yeah, completely. And so we’ll throw out all completely different phrases. I imply, we discuss loads about fractional CMO, but when that looks like too elevated of a time period, know, advertising and marketing chief, advertising and marketing strategist, advertising and marketing advisor, you already know, the purpose is what they’re doing. They’re, main the advertising and marketing initiatives and never simply being an order taker.
John Jantsch (13:51.672)
So let’s flip to companies which are listening, as a result of I do know we’ve got companies listening as properly. How have they got to shift their mindset to essentially keep related? imply, I feel in some company, you take a look at a few of these companies which are offering web optimization and content material and social media, that is their package deal, proper, of completed for you providers. There is likely to be a time within the very close to future the place that is simply not that related.
Sara Nay (14:19.372)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (14:19.423)
or folks aren’t going to be keen to pay what you want to run a worthwhile enterprise. So how do companies must shift their mindset?
Sara Nay (14:26.705)
Yeah, and there is been lots of stuff coming on the market that I’ve seen on LinkedIn and completely different articles about what number of companies are going to close down within the subsequent few years. I feel lots of that stuff’s exhausting to foretell, however I do suppose if you happen to simply preserve providing execution, it is a race to the underside in lots of instances as a result of small companies, even when they don’t seem to be doing it that successfully but, they’re bringing in AI options to chop prices in sure areas. And I feel that advertising and marketing execution is a kind of.
areas. And so, you already know, I feel if companies preserve providing execution as their core providers, it is going to be very difficult within the subsequent few years shifting ahead, as a result of AI is turning into extra refined. So that you’re mainly competing towards AI in that state of affairs versus if companies shift their providing and so they step extra into this management position, the place they’re, you already know, specializing in technique.
they’re elevating group, it may be their very own group or it may be inner group, however they’re elevating people basically with AI techniques beneath them. Then they’re working alongside AI versus competing towards it.
John Jantsch (15:35.64)
So if I am a small enterprise proprietor listening and.
Clearly selecting up and studying the e-book goes to be the 1st step. However what are a pair steps in the direction of taking this possession mentality that anyone might begin this week? Should you’re caught within the outdated form of mind-set, listed below are a pair issues you are able to do this week to start out altering your mindset or possibly even altering your advertising and marketing.
Sara Nay (16:06.165)
Yeah, in fact. There’s two issues that come to thoughts proper off the bat. One of many first issues, and I speak about this within the e-book as properly, is the advertising and marketing technique pyramid. We discuss loads about it at Duck Tape Advertising, but it surely’s actually taking a step again and answering some enterprise strategic questions first. So actually analyzing what are what you are promoting objectives? What are your aims? What’s your income? The place are you rising in the direction of? What are your mission, imaginative and prescient, values? And so actually analyzing a few of these issues.
After which considering by means of what’s your advertising and marketing technique that can assist you transfer in the appropriate path. After which considering by means of what’s your group technique. So you must have these two backside layers of the pyramid first to then take into consideration group. However, know, to the query of how can companies take again possession if you’re analyzing your group construction, suppose by means of like, these inner roles? Are we counting on outsourced distributors? If we’re counting on exterior outsourced distributors or options.
Do we’ve got readability and confidence and management or possession as to what they’re doing or are we form of left at midnight? I if you happen to’re left at midnight by means of a few of your partnerships, that is when it is time to analyze, does it make sense to proceed on with this partnership or is there a means the place we are able to get extra possession and management? In order that’s the place I’d begin is form of going again to the fundamentals there and analyzing your present construction, your present relationships, your present group.
and ensuring that you’ve readability in what everyone seems to be doing.
John Jantsch (17:35.672)
So I will go somewhat within the weeds right here on AI, primarily as a result of it is on everyone’s thoughts proper now. There are lots of a few of these companies that we’re speaking about are shifting their complete mannequin to being calling themselves AI companies, the place they need to are available in and present you tips on how to put in brokers and tips on how to automated this and automatic that. How do you suppose small companies must be taking a look at?
Sara Nay (17:51.703)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (18:02.806)
I imply, I do not suppose we’ve got to persuade them that it is not going away, however how do you suppose they need to be taking a look at getting essentially the most out of AI as actually the top to finish resolution or the top to finish assistant at this level that it may be reasonably than simply taking a look at it as, here is how I can automate stuff and or worse but, here is how I can fireplace folks and do extra with much less.
Sara Nay (18:08.909)
Yeah, a giant a part of that I feel is doing an evaluation of who’s presently in your group and you are not asking the query.
How can we get extra work out of them or how can we get them to maneuver sooner or be extra productive? What you are answering is how can we elevate them to make extra of an influence? And so one of many workouts that we have completed with our group pretty lately, and that is additionally within the e-book as properly, is we had everybody on our group analyze what expertise are they doing frequently. After which we mainly had them determine what are human-led expertise that they need to proceed to give attention to, issues that mild them up, that they love.
After which we additionally had them determine what expertise will be AI assisted and what expertise and duties may very well be executed by AI. And so we went by means of that train so folks might basically analyze their roles and take into consideration how they may future proof their careers shifting ahead. And so I feel that is a very nice train for anybody listening as a enterprise chief or in your complete complete group is you must all be excited about how can we future proof the enterprise as a complete.
And that is lots of what you and I speak about once we speak about shifting our mannequin in a brand new path. However you additionally should be contemplating everybody in your group. How are you going to assist them elevate with AI as an alternative of get replaced by it? After which how will you assist them proceed to develop and give attention to the abilities which are turning into extra necessary due to the evolution of AI?
John Jantsch (19:54.414)
speaking with Sarah Ney, the creator of Unchained. Sarah, I recognize you spending a number of moments to speak about Unchained. Is there a spot that you just’d invite folks to go to search out out extra concerning the work you do, in fact, however then additionally the brand new e-book?
Sara Nay (20:08.269)
Completely, so unchainedmodel.com is the e-book’s web site, so love so that you can test that out and in addition join with me on LinkedIn. Once more, my identify is Sarah Ney.
John Jantsch (20:18.23)
Superior, properly once more, I recognize you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll see you considered one of today quickly on the market on the
Sara Nay (20:24.589)
Thanks.
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