John Jantsch (00:01.006)
Whats up and welcome to a different episode of the Duct Tape Advertising and marketing Podcast. That is John Likelihood. My visitor right now is Alex Goldfein. He is a three-time Wall Road Journal bestselling writer, one of the wanted gross sales audio system on the planet. He is the CEO of the Income Progress Consultancy, one of many high grossing solo consulting companies in America, producing 7.5 million yearly. His shoppers, primarily B2B organizations, implement easy, proactive actions that drive 15 to 30 % gross sales development.
yearly and we’re gonna discuss his newest ebook out develop how one can increase market share and outsell your competitors. So welcome to point out Alex.
Alex Goldfayn (00:39.721)
Hello John, thanks sir. Thanks for having me.
John Jantsch (00:42.06)
I need to unpack one of many core themes of the ebook. You discuss reworking reactive firms into proactive ones. Inform me little bit about that pondering.
Alex Goldfayn (00:52.91)
Effectively, I feel, you realize, over 415 shoppers over about 22 years that I’ve finished these outgrow income development initiatives with, what I’ve realized is about 95 % of all firms and in addition 95 % of all salespeople are typically reactive, which means we take what’s in coming. and if you take what’s in coming and most firms which have been round.
some historical past are excellent at this, like world class, proper? Once I arrive at a company, normally they’re world class at this reactive work, which is principally customer support work. Effectively, the one strategy to actually develop by way of quantity development, not inflationary development, not acquisitive development, however natural quantity gross sales development, the one manner to do this is we now have to take market share.
We’ve to, uh, take enterprise from one other firm that already has the enterprise. And the one strategy to compete for and take market share is to be professional lively. You can not react your strategy to market share development. You’ll be able to’t do it. You are simply, if you’re reactive, you are simply, you realize, a rising tide lifts all ships, sinking tide sinks all ships. Uh, and also you’re simply transferring with the present. You go the place the economic system takes you.
And that’s 95 % of all firms and 95 % of all salespeople. And that is really excellent news as a result of it signifies that it is very easy to face out in that crowd. It is very easy to do higher. And because of this, it is actually, very easy, John, to develop.
John Jantsch (02:45.806)
Yeah, and you realize, on this explicit second in time, beginning the third quarter of 2025, as we file this, I am seeing numerous firms that it is even worse as a result of they are not even even when they’re sad proper now, they’re like not reaching out as a result of there’s numerous uncertainty. And it is like, I am simply gonna keep put. So I imply, I’d recommend that your proactive might be much more needed as a result of there’s in all probability much less incoming proper now.
Alex Goldfayn (03:11.62)
Not solely is it extra needed, it really works higher now due to precisely what you stated, as a result of actually no person’s reaching out now. So outgrow proactivity works actually, very well in good economies as a result of individuals have cash to spend and we are able to go to them and say, hey, what are you spending your cash on? Could I assist you to with that? I would love a possibility to assist. However in a foul economic system, John, due to precisely what you stated, individuals sit round and your competitors is like, I am not gonna name them.
John Jantsch (03:15.202)
Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (03:40.506)
now, particularly now, I am not going to pitch them, you realize, for extra merchandise or extra providers now on this economic system. I am telling you, if you name a buyer and say, I used to be eager about you, how’s your loved ones? What are you engaged on that I might help you with? Or maybe what are you doing with my competitors that I might help you with? And that is any individual, you realize, does any individual have a pleasant relationship with? if you name any individual like that, John, you are the one one in that individual’s life.
John Jantsch (03:59.16)
Thank
John Jantsch (04:03.0)
Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (04:09.943)
doing that. No one else is doing it, particularly now. So discuss standing out from the gang and the way straightforward it’s. Simply present up as a result of no person is.
John Jantsch (04:20.974)
I feel I do know the reply to this, however inform me a bit bit concerning the time period outgrow. What are you making an attempt to mission with that?
Alex Goldfayn (04:29.292)
Yeah, properly, we need to outgrow the market. We need to outgrow the competitors. We need to outgrow the common. We need to outgrow the corporate’s personal historical past yr to yr, you realize, by way of development. And once more, the way in which to do this is thru taking market share. And the way in which to take market share is to be proactive.
John Jantsch (04:50.484)
So trying a bit bit again to one among your very first issues as saying that, 90 % of the parents simply wait round. I imply, is that one other manner of claiming that 90 % of salespeople are lazy?
Alex Goldfayn (05:02.198)
No, it is one other manner of claiming that 90 or 95 % of salespeople have super discomfort and concern with speaking with prospects and prospects when nothing is flawed, which is my definition of proactivity. If any individual says, what do you imply by proactive? I imply, when nothing is flawed, when the worth is not going up, which is when salespeople name, if you want the cost, which is when prospects hear from salespeople.
John Jantsch (05:20.225)
Sure.
Alex Goldfayn (05:31.258)
When you may’t get them the order on time, which is when prospects hear from salespeople, proper? Individuals solely hear from individuals when one thing rises to the extent of urgency to make the decision. And so this communication, this proactive communication is when nothing is flawed. In order that’s my definition of productiveness. And it isn’t laziness. It is intense and extreme discomfort with bothering the shopper, annoying the shopper, taking their time and doubtless hovering above all of that, even greater.
is discomfort and concern of rejection. Concern of rejection. If I name them about this different providing, they may inform me no into my ear gap. And that is an intense private rejection, proper? And that is what we’re making an attempt to keep away from. We people, and also you and I are too, we’ll do something attainable to keep away from that form of rejection.
together with going out and asking for the enterprise.
John Jantsch (06:32.428)
Yeah. You understand, again, again after I was simply getting began, I had a routine on, Fridays. I’d simply decide up the telephone and name 5 individuals. I used to be not making an attempt to promote something. I used to be not making an attempt to do something. And I can not let you know, I used to giggle. In I wrote an enormous weblog put up about this, that about half the time one or two of these telephone calls, would, would begin with, I used to be simply which means to name you. And it was like, okay.
Alex Goldfayn (06:57.027)
Yeah. Yeah.
John Jantsch (07:00.162)
Get out my order pad. It was wonderful.
Alex Goldfayn (07:02.201)
That is it. That is it. If you present up when nothing is flawed, you might be saving the shopper from having to consider it once more. No matter is of their head, regardless of the want is perhaps. If you happen to do not name them such as you simply shared, they’ll have to consider it extra, in all probability repeatedly, as a result of as soon as normally does not do it. You do not take into consideration one thing after which do it usually. You concentrate on one thing many occasions and then you definately may do it, however you may not. And it is extremely helpful.
John Jantsch (07:06.35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (07:30.819)
to do what you simply described. And that is why my shoppers, and I’ve had tens of 1000’s of salespeople undergo this and run these processes that we’re speaking about. We continuously hear from individuals, why will I’ve you? Or I am so glad you referred to as, are you able to please examine on this for me? Product, service, no matter it’s.
John Jantsch (07:52.227)
Yeah. Yeah. So would you say that that is only a, like, it is a behavior, it is a system or is it cultural in a company or is it all of the above? Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (08:04.407)
Yeah, you want each. So I say that outgrow is 2 thirds mindset work as a result of, you realize, habits all the time follows pondering and we won’t outsell our mindset. So if we predict we’re bothering the shopper, we’ll promote accordingly. But when we predict it is our obligation to assist the shopper they usually need our assist as a result of they’re higher off with us than with the competitors who is not pretty much as good as us, then we promote that manner. We promote as if
John Jantsch (08:20.792)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (08:32.289)
we now have much more worth for the shopper. So it is two thirds mindset work. In Outgrow, we now have an acronym referred to as COPE, John, COPE, confidence, optimism, positivity, and enthusiasm. And we want these mindsets as a result of we now have to deliver them to the salespeople that we work with. We’ve to deliver them to the group. So culturally, in Outgrow group that runs Outgrow,
turns into extra cope, turns into extra assured, extra optimistic, extra constructive, extra enthusiastic. And when you’re these issues, it is a lot simpler to make proactive calls, to supply further merchandise, to comply with up on quotes and proposals, and to ask individuals what else.
John Jantsch (09:17.55)
How, how prepared does this, does an individual utilizing this technique should be for, if I begin with a name with, simply need to see if there’s something I might assist you to with. I promote widgets, however the man tells me, you realize what, we simply fired our accounting agency. We’re actually screwed. How ready do I’ve to be to say, you realize what, I feel I might help you with any individual, you realize, unrelated to me, I am not going to make any cash off of this, however I feel I might help you. imply, how ready or, or, or how a lot of your system do you suppose?
depends on simply being the one that solves issues.
Alex Goldfayn (09:50.988)
suppose individuals simply need to assist individuals. And I additionally suppose our beginning place is individuals simply need to be helped. You are calling your prospects, your prospects. Individuals simply need to be helped. That is place to begin primary. Then after we are exhibiting up, we’re merely providing to assist individuals, which is what they need. John?
Over 100 million outgrow actions, log, tracked and analyzed over 23 years by over 400 shoppers. So we log our actions after which we see the, you realize, with the responses, the outcomes, the outcomes. Um, not one time, not as soon as has any buyer ever stated, I would quite you not make my life simpler right now. Has it occurred as soon as individuals simply need to be helped. when you’re calling to promote a product and any individual has a necessity that you do not present.
Effectively, then attempt to assist them. Widespread sense, you realize, human relationship stuff. in actual fact, I’d argue that already occurs. You understand, when you’re watching this proper now, what number of occasions does one among your prospects ask you for one thing that you do not provide them? And also you went and located a strategy to get it for them. Possibly you linked them to your competitors. Even possibly you went to your competitors and received what they wanted for them. That occurs on a regular basis. And if you do this, the shopper remembers it.
perpetually.
John Jantsch (11:17.774)
Effectively, and, and, know, as soon as you have, I’ve, I’ve seen this on a regular basis. As soon as I’ve, as soon as I’ve received that belief, um, you realize, I need to hold it. Um, and I hold it by simply not, not permitting them to name anyone else, proper. I am the one one which they might name no matter what their drawback is. And, and both it takes a bit additional work typically, you realize, your stuff, you are not going to receives a commission for immediately, however, um, as you have seen in, your analysis, uh, pays off time and time once more, talking of, uh, analysis.
how would an organization arrange?
measuring this, you realize, since you may make 10 of these calls and nothing actually occurs right now. you realize, so now the gross sales individual’s like, you realize, that is, that is probably not paying off. you realize, is there a strategy to measure you discuss them actions? suppose, I feel that is what you referred to as them. you realize, you realize, these actions, is there a strategy to then flip them right into a system of KPIs so to talk that, that, you realize, that doubt do form of encourage individuals to say, this works.
Alex Goldfayn (12:08.0)
Yeah, yeah, outgrow actions. Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (12:15.754)
Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (12:20.342)
Yeah, so within the ebook, there are scorecards and metrics that we use throughout at examples. And I do not know when you can see our video proper now. You’ll be able to see a few baseball bats behind me and we name it swinging the bat. So we do not observe the hits and outgrow. We observe the swings as a result of we all know what the batting averages are. So we’re merely asking outgrow members who we name out growers.
John Jantsch (12:23.746)
Sure.
Alex Goldfayn (12:48.854)
We’re asking this. These are individuals who face prospects for you. We’re asking them to attempt to take our act to take our actions as a result of we all know, you realize, in baseball you may hit the ball precisely proper, useless on, and it flies proper out of the fender and it is an out. And gross sales is similar manner. You are able to do every part proper and hit the ball completely. After which, you realize, getting the win is basically out of our management. You’ll be able to’t actually management if the shopper is in temper.
You’ll be able to’t actually management if the shopper has an itch if you’re calling to scratch. can management making my name, however I can not management in the event that they want it in that second. cannot management the timing. the opposite factor we all know is we want eight or 9 nos for each sure that we received in gross sales. you, when you win 10 to twenty % of the time in gross sales, you are among the best. baseball, you may fail 70 % of the time and go to the corridor of fame.
In our work, we fail greater than that.
John Jantsch (13:47.118)
Yeah, I do not know pretty much as good as pitching is nowadays, Alex. I will say it is, you realize, seven and a half occasions now.
Alex Goldfayn (13:53.955)
I do know it is dropping, is not it? I do know. Today, 250 is an efficient batting common, proper, in baseball? We have been each baseball followers. We have been chatting about that earlier than we began our dialog right here. Anyway, we do observe the efforts as a result of we all know what the success charges are. You understand, I am going to offer you an instance. We’ve a way referred to as the do you know query, and we now have one other approach referred to as the reverse do you know query. Each of those are detailed within the ebook.
John Jantsch (14:13.422)
Yep.
John Jantsch (14:19.853)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Goldfayn (14:23.394)
So the do you know query or DYK, do you know, is you suggesting an extra services or products to your buyer that they do not already purchase from you. They in all probability purchase it some other place. They in all probability want it. They in all probability purchase it out of your competitors, service or product. And so what we all know statistically is that 20 % of these shut, 20 % develop into a brand new line merchandise. So if I say to you, hey, John, do you know I do keynote speeches? What about longer workshops? How about one-on-one teaching?
After all, I work with organizations. I ask you 5 of these, and it is going to take me 20 seconds, possibly, one will shut and switch into a brand new line for us to work on. And so as an example any individual listening to us has 10 salespeople. And every a type of 10 asks 5 digital questions they usually’re tracked. We do enter them right into a system. We’ve an outgrow monitoring type. a easy net type. You enter it in and on the finish of the week, you get knowledge again from us. We ship the info again to you. It is all automated.
Um, 10 individuals ask 5 digital questions a day. That is 50 a day, 250 per week, a thousand a month, 12,000 a yr. If my math is correct, that is high of my head. 12,000 digital questions a yr. If we are able to get 10 individuals to offer us 20 seconds a day.
20 % of 12,000, that is the success charge, is 2,400 new line objects. That is a reality. It isn’t, I hope they will add 2,400 new line objects. If they will get 5 Did You Know questions in 20 seconds from 10 individuals a day, day by day, that is the place the complexity comes. That is the arduous half. Not asking the Did Is aware of, it is the choreography. It is doing it on a regular basis, day by day, they are going to get 2,400 new.
John Jantsch (16:07.726)
Yeah
Alex Goldfayn (16:12.032)
line objects, then the query turns into how a lot cash per line merchandise and what number of occasions a yr will that new factor be bought? Trigger many individuals promote issues repeatedly. It could possibly be month-to-month, could possibly be quarterly. It could possibly be twice a yr. You do the maths nearly all the time 5 digital questions a day will get you to thousands and thousands of {dollars} in new income as a reality, statistically for certain. If you will get 5 digital questions a day.
John Jantsch (16:13.634)
me.
John Jantsch (16:37.356)
And I guess you each salesperson listening has had an expertise the place they walked right into a shopper’s workplace and the shopper stated, yeah, we simply did this new factor over right here. After which they stated, do you know that we do this? Proper.
Alex Goldfayn (16:48.792)
After which you realize what you hear is you hear, do this? I did not know you probably did that. And you are like, dude, I simply instructed you that I do this like two weeks in the past. I do know it was you as a result of we have been speaking to one another similar to we are actually. And also you had the very same response two weeks in the past. I did not know you probably did that. Now I am telling you once more, two weeks later, you continue to do not know. So the takeaway for us salespeople is simply since you inform any individual one thing does not imply they know. It means you instructed them does not imply a register does not imply they bear in mind.
John Jantsch (17:05.518)
me.
John Jantsch (17:18.616)
So it is a good segue to non-sales division of us, proper? I imply, how can they contribute to this sort of proactive gross sales tradition? Seems like they could possibly be asking do you know?
Alex Goldfayn (17:22.615)
Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (17:28.096)
100%. imply, we’re continuously working with customer support individuals, managers, frontline individuals. what, what it develops, you realize, shoppers have referred to as it a non-traditional gross sales power. even individuals like mission managers, when you’re in development, shopper execs or, or, you realize, engineers and designers who’re like, did not develop into an engineer to be a used automobile salesman. Alex, thanks dude. However that is not for me. And once more, mindset work. You are not promoting, you are serving to.
John Jantsch (17:43.672)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Goldfayn (17:57.762)
Individuals want extra assist from you. So sure, it’s for anyone who faces prospects, who can ask a, do you know query or two on the calls, even which are incoming, you realize, proactive calls are an enormous a part of our work. But when they arrive to you, you probably have a counter operation or a gross sales flooring of some variety, or when you’re simply customer support choosing up the telephone all day, you may say, do you want this? How are you on that?
We simply received a few of this in and ask your DigiNose.
John Jantsch (18:30.531)
So does that should be in an SOP someplace so that everyone’s educated on it? Or is it extra of a search for moments of reality?
Alex Goldfayn (18:39.751)
It is extra change the mindset, make them assured and optimistic and constructive and enthusiastic, after which say to them, please ask 5 a day as a result of that is what we’re doing now. does, you realize, it is, it is heat and fuzzy above all it is constructive work as a result of we’re serving to prospects extra, however it wants monitoring and accountability or else it stops. It does not hold going. It stops.
John Jantsch (19:09.528)
So how do you get this ingrained into a company? As a result of I am guessing, you realize, they will come to 1 Alex’s wonderful workshops, get all the great concepts, after which return to again to the store. And it is like, we do it for per week. imply, how do you make it a behavior?
Alex Goldfayn (19:19.989)
Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (19:25.045)
Proper. Effectively, we, you realize, you simply stated the important thing phrase behavior. we are saying outgrow gross sales doing not gross sales coaching, as a result of as you simply stated, gross sales coaching, do not develop income. Gross sales coaching tells individuals stuff in all probability that they already know. After which they return to their reactive life. And you realize, in gross sales, we now have to do issues to generate profits. We will not know stuff. We’ve to do stuff to generate profits.
John Jantsch (19:29.774)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (19:43.682)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (19:52.93)
Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (19:53.88)
There are some professions that may generate profits by understanding issues. We’re not one among them. We’ve to do stuff that we all know. So, you we have interaction with shoppers for usually three to 5 years, And so we now have a launch yr the place the work begins. It takes us about 90 days to create their proactive program. Then we train it. It is a one-day workshop usually only for that shopper, only for that shopper’s individuals. It isn’t open. It is simply theirs. So it is a non-public.
John Jantsch (19:58.606)
the
John Jantsch (20:06.99)
Yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (20:23.287)
engagement. After which they start this weekly cadence of the chief of the hassle actually asks for or prescribes some goal actions for the week. For instance, this week, please give me 5 proactive telephone calls to those that you have not talked to in six months or extra. That is particular. 5, do you know questions and 5 quote comply with ups. It is three units of actions, 15 issues for the week. Then individuals go do it.
Step two, step three is that they log it into our system. Step 4 is we put out knowledge and we present them the scorecard. Simply monitoring efforts. Who tried and who did not? Who cares and who does not? After which we put out success tales. We put out wins, we inform the wins, we inform the success tales within the phrases of the individuals who submitted them. That is 5 step form of suggestions loop that occurs each week. Subsequent week, they make a brand new task of actions.
John Jantsch (21:17.89)
you
Alex Goldfayn (21:22.259)
At 30, 60, and 90 days, we go to with them and do net conferences to evaluation the info, to inform success tales to the group verbally. Individuals really communicate their tales to one another, ask one another questions. Then we comply with up with them within the subsequent six months as properly. So over a 9 month interval within the launch yr, we’re with them seven occasions. no person cares what the guide desires. The salespeople do not care.
John Jantsch (21:36.866)
Yeah.
Mm.
Alex Goldfayn (21:50.732)
what the surface advisor desires. They solely care what their management desires. Individuals solely do what they suppose is vital to their boss. So this work, as a lot as something, is about, we coach the leaders. The leaders then should do the accountability and the implementation and the buy-in work and the sustaining of power with the people who find themselves taking the swings and doing the outgrow work.
John Jantsch (22:17.996)
Yeah. I, know, that, getting them telling tales to one another, that form of peer strain nearly that that places on might be a extremely highly effective facet.
Alex Goldfayn (22:28.215)
It does just a few issues. know, and all of the analysis reveals, John, that recognition is a more practical device to make change with, to vary habits with than cash is. Recognition is extra highly effective than giving any individual some cash in non-public. The reason being that one, the individual feels proud. You understand, they’re being acknowledged, they get to inform their story. Two, different individuals, it makes it unattainable for them to say, this does not work right here.
John Jantsch (22:33.87)
Yeah. Proper.
John Jantsch (22:56.278)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Alex Goldfayn (22:56.683)
Trigger here is tales about it working right here. Three, these individuals aspire to be acknowledged subsequent. 4, and the very last thing, it teaches the work. It teaches what works, proper? Within the phrases of the comfortable salespeople, the profitable individuals, it is training, peer to look, not from the highest down, peer to look training.
John Jantsch (23:02.286)
Yep.
John Jantsch (23:07.31)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (23:19.736)
Yeah, that is superior. Effectively, Alex, I recognize you taking just a few moments to drop by the duct tape advertising podcast. Is there wherever you’d invite any individual to attach with you, find out about your work, clearly, be taught concerning the ebook.
Alex Goldfayn (23:32.245)
Yeah, thanks, John. They’ll get the ebook on Amazon or wherever they purchase books. Barnes and Noble has it. Books A Million has it. Wherever books are bought. Really launched because the quantity two greatest promoting enterprise ebook in America behind solely Atomic Habits. I used to be capable of outsell all people apart from Atomic Habits, in fact.
John Jantsch (23:51.022)
That is solely been primary for what, like six, seven years?
Alex Goldfayn (23:54.281)
Proper. Effectively, it is good firm, I suppose. After which if you wish to be taught extra about Outgrow and the income development that we do, please go to runoutgrow.com.
John Jantsch (24:12.046)
Effectively, once more, recognize you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you on the market at Wrigley discipline or one thing.
Alex Goldfayn (24:18.572)
Thanks a lot for having me go Cubs. recognize that, John. Thanks for the Cubs. out.
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