The ultimate a part of the Ampel-produced trilogy on the ability of audio sees Darren speaking to Lauren Deighton, Ampel’s Director of Media and Partnerships, about podcast efficiency measurement and the all-important conversations with purchasers. On-Demand Audio continues to be a brand new medium, at the very least commercially, and framing the dialog appropriately is significant to having everybody viewing audio from the identical perspective.
Podcast audiences aren’t “digital” or radio – they’re communities. Audio creates intimate connections and has the best consideration and actions of any channel because of the trusted nature of the medium. So if its benefit is in influence, Why are we nonetheless measuring towards attain and impressions?
They’ll speak to the Head of Podcasting at one among Australia’s largest podcast networks to debate how purchasers are, and will, evaluating audio success.
Lauren Joyce is Chief Technique and Connections Officer at ARN. Lauren is a Cannes Younger Lion Gold Award winner. With years of expertise in strategic and consumer partnership roles with corporations like Mamamia, UM and Ensemble, she is completely positioned to advise on the easiest way to converse with purchasers in regards to the strengths of audio.
Bryan Barletta at Sounds Profitable is likely one of the audio business’s most prolific thought leaders together with his common Podcasts and Publication about one of the best in audio tech and analysis. We had been fortunate sufficient to seize Bryan for a chat about the place we’re with podcast advert tech, and, extra importantly, what’s coming subsequent.
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One other piece of the puzzle that may’t be ignored is the worth of the communities which can be created round podcasts. So, I believe many podcasters are wonderful at constructing a social group that sits as a assist to the podcast after which is used as a option to amplify new content material or to mine for various dialogue subjects.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hello, I’m Darren Woolley, CEO of World Advertising and marketing Administration Consultancy, TrinityP3 and welcome to Managing Advertising and marketing, a weekly podcast the place we talk about the problems and alternatives dealing with advertising and marketing, media, and promoting with business thought leaders and practitioners.
That is the ultimate a part of our three-part sequence produced by Ampel, the audio expertise company. Half one had Josh Butt, Ampel’s Govt Producer and Founder, speak to us in regards to the energy of getting your audio branding proper.
Half two had Ampel’s Common Supervisor in Chief Strategist, Michelle Lomas, speaking about why audio is such an awesome possibility for manufacturers who wish to develop their profile.
Please return and pay attention to those when you haven’t already. However right now, we’ve got Lauren Deighton, Ampel Director of Media and Partnerships, and we’re speaking measurement and speaking to advertisers. I’m going to let Lauren let you know extra about it, so please welcome Lauren.
Lauren:
Hello Darren. Thanks for having me right now. Good to be right here.
Darren:
Effectively, thanks. Look, that is actually necessary as a result of clearly, we talked to Michelle about getting the technique proper. Clearly, all the hassle that goes into constructing the technique and getting the podcast recorded is pointless when you don’t discover a method of truly getting it on the market.
Lauren:
Sure, positively. My position right here at Ampel is to work with potential model and company companions. So, loads of what I do is take our properties as soon as they’ve been produced and put collectively packages, built-in packages that manufacturers and companies can faucet into and sponsor, significantly in the event that they’re seeking to attain a extremely area of interest devoted viewers.
And inside this episode, we’ve actually targeted on what companies and types must be taking a look at after they do put money into podcasting, significantly round measurement. So, what are the metrics that show {that a} podcast marketing campaign has or has not been profitable? And we wish to be sure that we’re reporting on the suitable factor in order that shifting ahead, we are able to work with these model companions once more.
It’s principally a two-way relationship. So, the podcast that has this area of interest, following this area of interest viewers, helps the model attain the folks they’re seeking to communicate to. However the model can even assist elevate the podcast.
Darren:
Both that or simply having the ability to produce essentially the most superb piece of content material that everybody desires to search out and unfold. I believe it’s known as a viral. Everybody desires to go viral, but it surely’s so onerous to do.
Lauren:
It’s actually onerous to do. And I really feel like … I imply that’s one thing I nonetheless get requested from manufacturers and companies once I get briefed. I used to get requested at six years in the past once I was at Vice or Information Corp — they’d be like, “One of many targets of this marketing campaign is that it goes viral.” And it’s like, effectively, it’s not likely an goal you’ll be able to tick off.
Like we’ll strive as onerous as we are able to to make superb content material that will get picked up, however we are able to’t assure virality. And it’s type of the identical in podcasting, they’re like, “However what if we simply make a present that’s so completely different and on the market that it simply takes off?” And sure, that may be one-way reveals get well-known and that’s nice, but it surely’s in all probability the 0.2% that occurs to.
Darren:
Effectively, I believe in some methods, that the extra somebody tries to go viral, the much less possible they’re to truly go viral. It’s superb how a lot of natural content material that does go viral is stuff that you’d go, “I’m not likely certain why that’s gone viral, but it surely has.”
However to the purpose about purchasers asking for that, we truly had a consumer who requested us to have a look at their company prices they usually had been going to a inventive company to provide a viral video a month. They usually had been paying a major amount of cash.
And the query I requested the company was, “How lengthy have you ever been doing it?” They stated, two and a half years. And in that, what’s that? 30 odd movies, what number of have gone viral? And everybody went quiet.
So, the consumer had been paying for this and I stated, effectively, look, it was an company initiative. I stated, any more, we’ll pay you 10 instances as a lot, however we’ll solely pay for those that do go viral. You may make the remainder of them and as quickly as you’ve obtained a viral one, we’ll pay you for it.
Lauren:
Nonetheless a needle in a haystack, isn’t it?
Darren:
Effectively, it places the accountability again on the creators.
Lauren:
Yeah. I believe there’s loads of platforms which can be serving to drive discoverability of podcasts. So, TikTok lately launched a report about music and the impact of audio when it accompanies video, and the way way more it drives engagement when you’re taking part in a video with the sound on, which is smart.
However for years on Fb and information websites and show, it’s all the time been autoplay off, and TikTok have now carried out principally this factor the place all movies play with audio on.
And so, platforms like which can be additionally serving to drive discoverability of podcasting as a result of persons are discovering podcasts in several methods they usually’re partaking with audio by way of social media or channels the place they possibly wouldn’t have engaged with them beforehand if you’re listening with hold forth. So, yeah, it’s an enormous ecosystem on the market.
Darren:
And this entire thought of viral, of virality, it goes proper to the purpose that you just wish to discuss, which is measurements since you may get 1,000,000 listeners, however are they the suitable million? So, measurement’s so necessary and but, it’s very early days, isn’t it, for podcast measurement?
Lauren:
Yeah, it’s. And we speak loads with manufacturers. They’ll come to us and say, “We wish to attain …” let’s say nurses for instance, as a result of we’ve obtained a podcast that talks on to nurses, so a distinct segment viewers. However when you’re seeking to attain nurses, that’s the proper podcast for you.
We’ll usually get briefs which can be round, we wish to attain essentially the most quantity of individuals. We wish 1 million plus impressions with this degree of frequency. And I assume, that’s not likely the best way that we imagine try to be taking a look at measurement of podcasts.
It must be targeted on the group that’s being constructed, the area of interest viewers and the position that it has to play within the advertising and marketing funnel. So, podcasting, it sits on the prime, it’s an consciousness tactic, it’s a model affinity tactic. It’s not a direct gross sales conversion tactic like search or something like that.
However loads of the time after we’re chatting with manufacturers and companies, they’re desirous to see the identical metrics that they could get from search. So, they’re saying to us, “How a lot site visitors to my website will I get from sponsoring this podcast? What number of gross sales and conversions will I get?”
And it’s like, effectively, that’s not the position for it right here. So, how can we have a look at it otherwise? And what you stated about tech, the tech additionally makes it troublesome as a result of it’s, I suppose, in its infancy compared to mediums like digital the place planners and consumers can have entry to that actually deep dive analytics that they will see every part that’s come about from a marketing campaign.
Podcasting’s nonetheless very a lot measured on listens, downloads, geography. The tech is getting higher and there’s positively a task for enchancment in tech to drive ROI and show that campaigns are being efficient. However I believe we should be taking a look at how we develop that textual content in order that we’re making certain folks nonetheless perceive the suitable position for the medium, if that is smart.
Darren:
So, Lauren, there’s two components right here I’m listening to. One is, there’s podcasting as a part of inbound advertising and marketing. That’s the place you’re making a podcast in your model as a method of attracting listeners to turn into a part of a group and fascinating with that content material regularly.
Then there’s the opposite half which is sponsoring or inserting promoting right into a podcast that maybe already exists. And so, there’ll be very two very completely different approaches to measurement as a result of one, you possibly can argue the place you’re paying for promoting to assist a podcast, you’d need to have the ability to measure some type of return on funding for that, wouldn’t you?
Lauren:
So, there’s issues that you are able to do to measure it extra precisely. And I had a dialog with Lauren Joyce from ARN round this.
So, taking a look at completely different metrics. So, issues like improve in model affinity, improve in belief, improve in model consciousness, they usually’re extra qualitative measures. So, after we work with manufacturers, we’d advocate let’s do a pre-campaign analysis and a post-campaign analysis, and have a look at the uplift of these metrics, that are the issues that you’re attempting to attain extra so than site visitors to website.
I imply, lots of people that take heed to podcasts, they’re of their automobile, they’re hands-free, they’re not going to click on the present hyperlink notes. A few of them do, but it surely’s not the principle goal of the podcast marketing campaign.
And so, we positively can reveal ROI to manufacturers, however they’re simply completely different metrics than loads of these companies and types which can be so targeted on measurement are used to. So, it’s nearly having conversations with companies and persevering with to coach them in regards to the position of podcasting in audio and within the wider panorama.
Darren:
So, what you’re saying is it’s not likely a efficiency media as in getting a direct response in actual time. It’s extra about maybe what’s known as model medium of constructing that model consciousness, constructing the model affinity.
I think about making selections about which podcast can be attention-grabbing as a result of how accessible is there for information round who that group is, who the viewers is that you just’re reaching in there? Are you continue to counting on attempting to match the viewers to the kind of content material that that podcast represents?
Lauren:
The info is different. You should utilize quite a lot of completely different platforms to measure it, and we do. So, I imply we distribute all our podcast by way of Omny. So, we’ve got entry to the Omny information, which I imply it’s pretty primary. It’s listens, downloads, geography, machine, these varieties of issues. Chartable, Spotify, they provide some extra in-depth information like gender, issues like that.
Podsights, we use as effectively, which is likely one of the finest for truly monitoring acquisition off a podcast. So, you are able to do that, whether or not that’s metric we must be taking a look at is what I’d argue. And we do, do that with manufacturers the place principally say they’ve obtained an advert in our present, we’ll give them a pixel to place down on the positioning that they’re attempting to drive folks to.
And we are able to truly measure as soon as these folks get to website, did they click on contact us, obtain a type, what have you ever, and we are able to report again on these issues. We use all of these items together to attempt to construct out essentially the most strong reviews doable.
Lots of it’s contextual, like contextual alignment. So, clearly, viewers is vital for many transient responses. However you wish to know who the viewers are and as I stated, we use quite a lot of completely different measurement platforms in order that we are able to ship on who that viewers is and again that up.
However then the opposite half that is essential is contextual alignment. And loads of manufacturers are nonetheless very keen on taking part in in that area. And it’s an area that’s going to get extra necessary, once more, with the deterioration of the third-party cookie the place we begin to see show promoting and video promoting on-line grouped into type of curiosity segments and issues like that.
And going again to that contextual alignment extra so than the retargeting methods and issues that that we’ve used. So, I believe that in itself, would possibly truly assist podcasting. Nevertheless it’s actually a mixture. It’s the contextual alignment; does the content material that you’re talking about in that advert relate to the content material within the present, relate to what the viewers has come to the podcast for, after which your viewers measurements and metrics as to who these persons are which can be listening.
Darren:
And also you talked about the third-party cookie simply being delay for one more 12 months. So, it’s going to be very stale by the point they do away with it, isn’t it?
Lauren:
Tremendous stale, I do know. Like 2024 now or is it … yeah, as a result of I used to be working company facet final 12 months once more, and third-party cookie was the recent matter of dialog. It’s simply type of everybody was scrambling to get an answer earlier than all of it occurred and we’ve been given a couple of extra years. So, we’ll see what occurs.
I’ll discover it attention-grabbing to see whether or not folks type of reverting again to contextual focusing on with the lack of a few of that information, the brand new segments that Google and Meta and the brand new segments they construct out in that regard — if that does type of change the best way folks have a look at podcasting measurement, as a result of they’ll have much less information to guage, I assume, regarding the show and that type of stuff.
So, will it have a run-on impact to folks being extra accepting of contextual alignment in audio.
Darren:
Now, the podcast measurement I discussed earlier is in its early days. I wouldn’t say infancy as a result of there’s been quite a lot of iterations, particularly pushed by the iab, round what’s a suitable measure. The place do you suppose it must get to?
Lauren:
I believe as an business, audio nonetheless everybody type of talks about it barely otherwise. So, some persons are nonetheless utilizing the obtain metric, others use the listener metric, like what number of listens did it get, which is clearly completely different to obtain. Some folks utilizing impressions now, which is extra of a digital metric in my thoughts.
I believe there simply must be a consensus on how we discuss it as an audio business to make it simpler to evaluate for planners and consumers somewhat than them having to tug all these completely different metrics out and attempt to examine apples with oranges.
By way of the place it must get to and after we get there, I don’t actually know. I really feel like there’s nonetheless so many alternative platforms that we’re measuring on as effectively. So, it’s not such as you’ve obtained a Google analytics for podcasting the place you’ll be able to pull every part into the one spot. You’ve obtained folks measuring on Spotify, folks measuring on Omny, Chartable.
I believe if we had type of one tech platform that the business used, which may make issues a bit clearer as effectively.
Darren:
Or at the very least one customary that everybody is caught to, in order that you possibly can examine like for like. However like most AdTech-MarTech, podcasting has turn into sufferer to this type of exponential growth of gamers. There’s so many alternative platforms, measurement instruments, issues like that, that it should be like herding the proverbial cats to get everybody to comply with it.
Lauren:
I believe with the completely different gamers, that’s for the time being the place podcasting is (a superb and a foul factor) as a result of 40% of Aussies take heed to a podcast every month. So, we’re nonetheless not saturated in that regard. We will proceed to develop. The way in which that folks devour for the time being is so completely different. So, you’ll have your youthful Gen Z, millennials consuming on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
After which as you skew older, you have got folks truly consuming on YouTube. So, your Boomers type of, loads of them devour podcasts on YouTube at 30%. You already know, there’s different those who use-
Darren:
Rattling Boomers.
Lauren:
Rattling Boomers. My dad all the time says to me, “I’m watching a podcast on YouTube” and I’m like, “Okay, yeah, listening.” Yeah, interchangeable, I assume. However I believe shifting ahead as extra folks turn into conscious of podcasting, it may be higher to consolidate and preserve it rather less complicated. I don’t actually know the reply precisely,
Darren:
Effectively, when you did, you’d be main the business as a result of I don’t suppose anybody does.
Lauren:
Sure, that’s true, yep.
Lauren:
So, let’s get into the tech chat. First up, let’s speak pod tech. Podcast know-how is extremely consolidated. The identical infrastructure that hosts and distributes your podcast can be your direct advert server, and generally even your SSP.
It offers the ability to any podcaster to handle monetization like YouTube or TikTok. So, indies and large corporations can run advertisements at related ranges.
Bryan Barletta is the rockstar of podcast tech and is the founding father of Sounds Worthwhile, the go-to podcast for business tech information.
Not too long ago, as we heard final time, Tom Webster, the doyen of podcasting information has joined Bryan they usually’re typically the neatest and most educated folks within the room in the case of podcasting.
Bryan has labored at Megaphone, Claritas and is a podcast business marketing consultant.
Thanks for becoming a member of us, Bryan. We’re very excited to speak to you right now. I’m truly huge fan of Sounds Worthwhile. Josh, our Founder, and EP instructed me about it once I began at Ampel and I pay attention just about each week. So, huge fan of what you’re doing there.
Bryan:
I actually admire that, thanks.
Lauren:
Yeah, it retains me updated with every part. I just like the little information snippets.
Bryan:
We’re attempting.
Lauren:
You’re doing an awesome job. So, in the case of podcasting know-how, from a reporting perspective, what’s accessible now? The place do you suppose that’s going to be in 5 years’ time and the place do you suppose we have to go from a reporting perspective? What do you suppose we’d like that we don’t have but?
Bryan:
Oh, I’m going to begin with the final one. I believe we’d like requirements that all of us adhere to and type of draw the road as a result of we’ve got greater than sufficient metrics. We have now the listeners IP, person agent and the episode that they wish to take heed to.
So, if it’s a mobile IP deal with or a enterprise IP deal with, possibly that’s rather less helpful. But when it’s family, we are able to be taught loads from there. We will be taught the distinction between the particular person within the family who listens on the Spotify app versus the Apple podcast app.
We will be taught the behaviors of every of them, the completely different reveals that they take heed to. We will be taught in regards to the content material that they’re listening to. We all know that the majority of those apps aren’t auto downloading anymore, and those that do auto obtain, have safeguards to forestall it.
And moreover, in a world the place we’re evolving from radio and billboards and mailers and issues like that, and never podcasting, serious about podcasting as an evolution of streaming, as a result of it’s the opposite method round. Streaming was the evolution of on demand like podcasting — we’ve got each metric we should be profitable.
And the infighting and the evaluating, what you may get with streaming to podcasting is admittedly simply one thing that runs the costs down. As a result of a sensible purchaser will use every part of their alternative (and they need to) to persuade you that it is best to promote at a lower cost.
So, podcasting metrics are truthfully about pretty much as good as they’re going to get on the uncooked information facet that we get in. However what we are able to do with them goes to be even higher after we begin specializing in that and begin apologizing for not having true listens. As a result of the one individuals who may have true listens are the apps, the aggregators; Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and Google.
They usually personal that listener relationship, and they’re in app audio promoting. So, to me, podcast promoting is what the publishers can management. It’s what we do by way of RSS feeds and dynamic advert insertion or baked-in advertisements. It’s what we do by way of obtain metrics and advert supply, which is figuring out when the portion of the episode or the advert was downloaded to the machine. And we are able to achieve this a lot nice stuff there.
What’s coming subsequent is these aggregators splitting it up and saying, “Hey, I can do a dwell pay attention. I can hearth your pixel in actual time to let you realize when that advert was precisely performed to that particular person.” However that’s distinctive to that app and that’s going to fragment the area as a result of then, a writer goes to must determine, do I run advert ops in 5 completely different locations? One for dynamic advert insertion on the open RSS feed, after which one in Apple and Spotify and Amazon and Google.
And the reply may be no. The reply may be that they do all dynamic advert insertion or they choose one accomplice they usually exclude their podcast from the opposite app. So, the evolution of the argument of do we’ve got sufficient measurement is both we maintain our floor and we are saying, “Yeah, we do, and we’ve got” and there’s a lot nice information you may get from it already.
Or we let consumers rightfully push after which Spotify is available in and says issues like, “We’re able to allow you to observe advertisements dwell. By the best way, the best way we’re going to take 50% of the gross income of your direct bought campaigns.”
Lauren:
I believe that the metrics that we’ve got are sufficient. I believe that I usually get pissed off as a result of I get numerous pushback from companies and types saying we don’t have sufficient metrics as a result of they’re attempting to have a look at the flawed metrics.
Clearly, the metrics that we’ve obtained, they’re very useful. But additionally, taking a look at metrics which can be extra qualitative in the case of podcasting. So, issues round measuring pre and post-awareness and affinity, and concentrating on branding for lots of our campaigns. Whereas, loads of companies ask me, “Effectively, what number of conversions am I going to get from operating this host-read advert?”
Do you discover that you just usually get questions like that the place persons are attempting to check podcasting extra to backside of funnel techniques? And in that case, how do you reply to these?
Bryan:
Effectively, yeah, I believe podcasting was instantly handled as a digital medium. So, the identical one who buys Fb advertisements is similar one who buys podcast advertisements, they usually’re on the lookout for a special expertise.
We’re not getting individuals who used to purchase radio advertisements, we’re barely getting individuals who purchase YouTube advertisements. And so, after we consider our medium nearer actually to radio than to digital show or video, sadly, these persons are attempting to suit it into their advertising and marketing funnel, their complete purview. And it doesn’t all the time match that method.
So, I believe the attribution options we’ve got proper now which can be pixel-based and may work off of IP and augmenting it, relying on the territory you’re in, can present good evaluation for elevate reviews. So, evaluating a management group towards how the marketing campaign did, whether or not or not you increase it, who cares? You’re nonetheless capable of create two completely different teams and say, “Did one carry out higher than the opposite?”
When you can increase it, you are able to do some actually attention-grabbing issues. You are able to do promo codes, you are able to do vainness or else you are able to do pre and post-surveys, such as you stated. I believe all of these are actually highly effective.
However you’re proper, the underside of the funnel persons are on the lookout for these clear return on funding metrics that present precisely what they spent and precisely what they obtained in a return, and that’s actually onerous in podcasting, even in what Spotify can do inside app audio promoting, not true podcast promoting.
That stuff is type of troublesome and I believe that that’s the drawback. We’ve been inherited by digital groups, not audio groups.
Lauren:
Sure, we positively have loads of these conversations. I wish to return to one thing you stated beforehand; do you suppose that if we did have standardized metrics as an business or extra standardized metrics that we had been reporting on — so everybody was type of having the identical discussions with these companies and planners and consumers that that may assist alleviate a few of these questions or assist educate?
Bryan:
Yeah, we’re at a minimal empower everyone to say no in the identical method. Like I obtained two younger children and when my spouse says no completely different than how I say no, it may be type of jarring and my child can discover a option to weasel their method round it.
But when we’re each utilizing the very same language and the very same phrases, principally stating downloads are sufficient, that is how we use downloads, that is the way you vet a present, for this reason it’s helpful, for this reason we’re not going to entertain additional dialog about listens — I believe if everyone says that very same message, completely.
The issue comes is when one gross sales particular person will get to that time actually they usually simply have to make a sale they usually say, “Oh, I perceive what you’re saying. Yeah, I get it. We’re not Spotify, so why don’t we knock $2 off the CPM?”
I can’t think about attempting to promote podcast stock. It’s a purchaser’s market proper now. And so, it is extremely troublesome and that’s what I’m actually attempting to do, is to remind folks of those requirements and do it in any respect ranges.
I’m a part of the USA model of the iab for his or her audio committee and a bunch of the subcommittees and tech labs and podcasting, and actually attempting to work with these main corporations within the area to only reinforce, “Hey, obtain’s sufficient and if anyone pushes you on it, push again.” And so, hopefully, we’re going to see that change.
Lauren:
Good. You’re doing good work on behalf of us all on the market. Thanks.
Bryan:
I’m attempting.
Lauren:
The place do you expect that podcasting tech goes to go subsequent? Like are there any extraordinary, attention-grabbing new tech improvements that you just’ve heard about otherwise you’ve heard corporations researching or seeking to develop?
Bryan:
I believe contextual is admittedly going to be the place we discover subsequent as a result of it’s the one factor we personal. Each writer ought to wish to transcribe absolutely their episode and make it accessible as a result of the textual content model of their episode is admittedly no completely different than the audio model of their episode.
So, if Spotify, Apple, Amazon, Google determine to translate their episode or transcribe their episode and it’s not proper, there’s not going to be loads of recourse for that. And if there may be, may you think about correcting it in 4 completely different locations plus internet hosting it by yourself? It’s higher to personal that.
And with contextual, you are able to do a lot. We will be taught not solely the content material of the present and say it is a Dungeons and Dragons podcast, however we are able to additionally say all types of actually attention-grabbing issues round, I don’t know, like you’ll be able to be taught in regards to the model security and suitability, the dangers associated to gam and the 12 classes of danger of the content material there.
You should utilize it to match to the visitor profiles and social media. And there’s so many issues that we are able to use podcasting as a base of and from there, stretch out to different information units.
So, I believe we’ve got loads of the core information, however we’ve been capable of excuse ourselves ahead. And so, I believe the evolution actually for the open podcasting market goes to be round higher utilization and quicker utilization of what we’ve got right now for an extended tail.
Not simply the each day and attempting to determine what the content material is in that episode and if it’s a superb match for the advertiser, however for Sounds Worthwhile with 350 downloads per episode, how do they shortly as quick as doable, determine my present, transcribe it, or get my transcription — course of it with all this contextual data and decide on it; not on the listener, however on the present.
And the way do they save that in order that they will course of it quicker and quicker every time in order that the reveals with 350 or 500 or perhaps a hundred downloads are all capable of generate income in a YouTube fashion. That’s how I believe the open market is admittedly going to evolve.
I believe we’re going to see some fairly scary issues on the aggregator facet. Like if we have a look at it, all the main streaming providers have podcasts. I don’t find out about you, however I’d be an enormous sucker for Netflix placing a whole season of the Witcher in podcast format on there to carry me over for the subsequent season.
I believe the Mandalorian, I’d take heed to that in a second, and that retains me energetic of their app, which is admittedly necessary to them. And it permits them to bundle a worth, which is difficult proper now in podcasting.
We don’t even have audible fashion costs the place you pay a flat charge per thirty days and use like tokens for subscription. It’s every particular person and I subscribe to a bunch of them. So, my Apple subscriptions appears to be like like 15 completely different gadgets that I’ve to cancel individually.
Lauren:
And even platforms, I assume, like TikTok as effectively, who need to do extra inside the podcasting area, what’s that going to seem like? Is that going to be hosted on the TikTok platform? How is it going to work?
Bryan:
And I’m excited for that. I believe I’m obsessive about podcasts and I believe that audio is such a cool medium and it doesn’t have to only be within the format that I actually like proper now. No matter will get folks excited and catches on is cool.
I imply, the quantity of particular issues I prefer to take heed to that I can solely discover on YouTube, and I actually couldn’t care about what’s on the video. I simply put my telephone to sleep as a result of I pay for the YouTube model that lets me do this. And now, I’m listening to somebody discuss a board sport I’m actually keen on, and I actually didn’t have to see extra footage of it or them play it. I simply want to listen to them discuss it. And for no matter motive, they selected to not listing it as a podcast.
TikTok, that might be the identical factor — Instagram, all of those completely different sources which have content material. Audio is a good way to have interaction with a listener, with the person when the telephone is of their pocket.
There are loads of belongings you shouldn’t be doing whereas watching a TikTok video, however there are many issues you’ll be able to multitask with whereas listening to a podcast.
Lauren:
Sure, positively, like driving. I believe such as you say, it’s all going to alter fairly quickly I believe over the subsequent few years. And I believe as an business, we’ll have to proceed to be taught as issues change and we’ll have to proceed to tweak how we promote and the way we discuss podcasting.
I did wish to get your ideas on one different factor; how do you’re feeling in regards to the attain and frequency dialog that I do know I’ve with loads of manufacturers in the case of shopping for throughout podcasts? So, I wish to hit mass attain for folks 25 to 54 who like gardening, for instance; versus that dialog round tapping into niche-dedicated communities.
As a result of I believe the best way that we discuss podcasting is the flexibility to faucet right into a group somewhat than simply type of shopping for throughout 500,000 impressions and hoping that a few of them stick.
Bryan:
Effectively, I like to mix the 2, actually. I believe that the enticing method to consider it’s, let’s say that you just’re actually keen on males, 18 to 24 in Texas seeking to purchase vehicles. And there’s a podcast on the market with 52% of the viewers that resonates with that, however that 52% is 520 downloads out of a thousand downloads.
So, which may appear tremendous small and also you’re like “Now, I’ve to get half of that they usually’re not going to do a bunch learn. So, it’s an announce learn and that’s like splitting hairs,” however let’s take into consideration the opposite half. What does it say {that a} present can resonate so effectively, can over index with folks that you just’re particularly attempting to focus on? After which there’s nonetheless loads of different folks on there.
Effectively, wouldn’t these folks additionally affiliate effectively with the identical ideas? Possibly that’s a brand new pool to get in entrance of. So, if an enormous portion of the viewers you’re on the lookout for is there. and that’s the way you discover a new present, then possibly you dig into the contextual side about what about that present resonates together with your viewers. What are the opposite audiences that take heed to that present and why aren’t they changing for you? Or are they, and also you simply didn’t find out about it?
So, I just like the hybrid of each. I like taking a look at demographic and behavioral information in a basic sense to determine new locations to purchase podcasts. I believe survey information is implausible. I believe even utilizing issues like Nielsen or Experian or any of the opposite information units on the market at a large enough view may give you directional information.
However I believe on the finish of the day, shopping for reveals and the content material of the reveals that resonate goes to be way more highly effective.
Lauren:
Superb. Thanks, Bryan. And thanks a lot for agreeing to speak to us right now and for approaching the present. So, thanks very a lot.
Bryan:
Thanks for having me.
Lauren:
I lately sat down with Lauren Joyce, Chief Technique and Connections Officer at ARN to speak in regards to the advertising and marketing and enterprise targets podcasting can fulfill, the metrics we must be contemplating when measuring success, and the conversations we must be having with companies, manufacturers, and as an audio business at giant.
Effectively, we’re right here right now with Lauren Joyce, Chief Technique and Connections Officer at ARN. Welcome, Lauren.
Joyce:
Thanks, I’m glad to be right here.
Lauren:
Yeah, we’re actually glad to have you ever. Immediately, we actually needed to speak round measurement inside the audio business as a complete, and I believe there’s been loads of completely different audio research which have come out this 12 months. Principally, I assume following on from the tip of the pandemic or type of the tip, I assume — appears to maintain going.
However I believe we’ve seen an increase in audio through the pandemic and sustained and wholesome consumption of radio as effectively. What are your ideas on the way forward for audio? Do you suppose we’ll proceed to see these will increase now that the pandemic has come to an finish?
Joyce:
Yeah, I believe that we are going to proceed to see elevated ranges of consumption. So, I believe that the entire period of time that folks spend listening to audio will proceed to extend. Presently, 7 in 10 Australians are listening to on-line audio each week. So, that’s a fairly vital quantity in itself.
After which when you drill down somewhat bit additional to what they’re listening to over the past 12 months, we’ve seen a rise in podcast consumption by round two hours per week. So, that’s a fairly vital quantity. I believe that the acceleration of improve will truly gradual somewhat bit. So, I believe you’ll proceed to see it improve, but it surely gained’t improve on the similar type of charge.
I believe that one of many causes that audio is so well-liked is as a result of total media consumption is big, and I believe that persons are overwhelmed with the amount of content material that’s on the market. However one of many causes folks join with audio so effectively is as a result of the connection that you’ve got with the medium is a extremely excessive worth one. And what I imply by that’s that audio can solely actually add to your life’s experiences. So, it doesn’t ask for something again.
You don’t must lend your eyes, you don’t must lend your arms. You may proceed to do no matter you’re doing. It’s actually excessive worth change for the patron. So, as a medium that means that you can devour content material and add to your expertise of doing the house responsibilities or driving to work or exercising, it solely is smart that with the breadth of several types of content material which can be accessible that the quantity of listening that folks do will proceed to extend.
Lauren:
And I believe folks, when they’re listening to audio, they’re paying loads of consideration even whereas they’re doing these different duties, whether or not it’s operating or driving or no matter.
Why do you suppose it’s that audio captures a lot of our consideration versus, I don’t know, one thing like TV the place we’re usually multi-screening or we’re chatting to somebody that’s sitting beside us. Why is audio so intimate?
Joyce:
Yeah, I believe loads of it’s now consumed together with your headphones on or your earbuds in. And so, it’s a actually intimate type of expertise, significantly in the case of podcasting.
Apparently, we’ve got a neuro lab at ARN, so we’ve got an in-house neuroscientist, and we’ve executed loads of analysis on this area to grasp the degrees of consideration that audio delivers, significantly relative to visible mediums. And what we all know is that audio generates about 13% extra consideration than audio visible mediums.
And truly, if you take a look at folks’s ranges of consideration after they’re consuming one thing visible, it’s usually the audio and the best way that that audio mattress is matched with the visuals that can improve the amount of consideration that persons are experiencing.
Now, I’m certain that Dr. Shannon who’s our neuroscientist would offer you a significantly better reply than me on this. However my understanding is that the rationale that audio attracts consideration is as a result of it’s an all the time on medium. So, you’ll be able to’t shut your ears.
You may shut your eyes, you’ll be able to type of zone out to a visible medium, however when audio exists, consideration is being paid. And it demonstrates the ability of audio in each only a pure audio sense, but additionally when it’s mixed with visuals and the significance of getting the nuance proper in the way you match your mediums and for advertisers, how you intend your channels holistically.
Lauren:
In fact. And I assume, how are among the purchasers that you’re working with for the time being seeing audio? Do you suppose that they’re conscious of the extent of consideration that folks pay to audio? Do you suppose that channel planners and consumers are type of taking that into consideration or are they focusing extra on type of different metrics like measurable ROI or digital?
I believe generally audio takes a backseat as a result of planners or consumers discover it harder to measure. Do you suppose that the conversations you’re having, they’re realizing that the significance of audio and the eye it generates?
Joyce:
Sure, I do. I believe that the iab did a research final 12 months that spoke to entrepreneurs and companies round the best way that they’re shopping for audio. And there’s definitely an actual intent throughout purchasers to be serious about audio holistically and to take extra of an built-in method as to how they’re planning audio.
However I do agree that total, with entrepreneurs having extra strain on ROI, there’s an actual pattern or conduct in direction of efficiency advertising and marketing over model advertising and marketing. And I do suppose that audio suffers on account of that. Audio is a wonderful medium for driving consciousness on the prime of the funnel, and that’s historically the place radio has performed.
So, it’s a really fast medium to have the ability to get into and to drive motion by way of. However then I assume among the newer types of digital audio sit additional down the funnel. So, podcasting is superb for driving consideration and advocacy given the intimacy of the listening relationship that the patron has with the medium.
Once more, referencing our neuro work, we all know that every completely different sort of audio channel truly performs a special position in driving the general outcomes. So, podcasting, actually, elicits a powerful constructive angle in direction of the model and you may see that the result’s 10 to twenty% larger than if the model surfaces in one other medium. While radio actually encourages the best ranges of consideration with consideration being round over 50% larger than different audio channels.
So, I believe it’s necessary for manufacturers to be contemplating the precise position that you really want the precise audio channel to be taking part in, after which planning it out accordingly.
Lauren:
Yeah, 100%. I fully agree with that. So, measurement continues to be type of, I assume in its infancy compared to different channels, however measurement is beginning to enhance. We’re seeing new corporations coming in that may assist with taking a look at acquisitions, pushed from podcasts, taking a look at conversions, issues like that.
When trying on the conversations you had in regards to the medium 5 years in the past and measurement versus what you’re having right now, are you seeing some variations there? What are the issues that you just’re seeing have modified in folks’s views of the medium?
Joyce:
Yeah, completely. I believe 5 years in the past, everyone was speaking about downloads. Now, we’re speaking about listens. 5 years in the past, everyone was delivering writer declare, I suppose, as to the amount of viewers that they’d. Whereas now, we do have an business primarily based ranker that makes the amount of downloads and listens accessible.
I imply, not each single podcast is a part of that, however the main publishers are all a part of that, which does deliver some science to the best way that folks can plan and purchase within the medium.
Podsights, clearly, are a tremendous firm that we work with, they usually do ship this service round attribution, and we ship that as customary as a part of {our relationships} with purchasers as a result of we see the worth in demonstrating the worth of the podcast channel. So, that actually does assist purchasers to grasp how effectively the medium is impacting their targets.
By way of different adjustments that I’ve seen within the business, I believe that the channel is changing into extra commoditized. I believe 5 years in the past, purchasers and consumers actually noticed the medium as they understood the worth within the intimacy of the connection between the listener and the content material itself.
Whereas, now, there’s a shift to be leveraging the bigger mass audiences that podcasts are actually delivering. So, I personally would nonetheless describe the podcast channel as delivering area of interest on mass.
So, sure, there’s a scalable viewers there now, however you’re nonetheless connecting with audiences in a extra area of interest atmosphere with content material that’s much less, I assume, broad attraction than a few of your different channels which can be on the market.
So, I believe that in itself, brings an actual profit and positively, we see within the model uplift research that we do post-campaign that that rub off onto manufacturers is admittedly constructive. So, the love that an viewers member has for the podcast content material and the area of interest content material that they may be consuming definitely rubs off on the model that’s surfacing inside that podcast.
Lauren:
Yeah, completely, I agree with that. And we attempt to focus loads on type of catering to these extra area of interest audiences and people ardour factors after we are creating content material as effectively.
I wish to return to one thing you stated a second in the past in regards to the rising consideration for manufacturers with podcasting versus different mediums. Do you suppose that that has one thing to do with the character of podcasting and type of, effectively, majority of podcast advertisements are nonetheless at host-read, extra native fashion of advert versus like a radio spot.
Do you suppose that that has one thing to do with it and likewise, the atmosphere that the advert’s in, so it’s type of much less cluttered I suppose, than many different mediums?
Joyce:
Yeah, positively. I believe inside the podcasting area, you continue to solely have possibly two to 3 advertisements per podcast, which is considerably completely different to what we’ve got within the radio area and even within the music streaming area.
So, sure, a lot much less cluttered, which matches to the flexibility of a model to chop by way of. After which clearly, leveraging the belief that the viewers member has with the podcast host by way of a podcast learn does play into the affinity that their listener will really feel for the model.
I believe that one other piece of the puzzle that may’t be underlooked is the worth of the communities which can be created round podcasts. So, I believe loads of podcasters are actually wonderful at constructing, whether or not it’s a social group that sits as a assist to the podcast after which is used as a option to amplify new content material or to mine for various dialogue subjects.
So, I labored at Mamamia, and You Magnificence is the Each day Magnificence podcast that they publish, and an enormous quantity of the content material that goes into the podcast is generated on account of the dialogue that’s happening within the You Magnificence Fb group. And that group, I imply, not that I’ve checked lately, however final I heard was sitting at round 60,000 members now.
So, I believe that the worth of that group that may be created in one other platform, however then switch throughout to the audio medium actually does give the sense of … for the listener, that they’ve obtained pals of their ears.
Lauren:
Yeah, 100%. I believe we actually attempt to concentrate on that ourselves, that type of built-in sponsorship mannequin.
At ARN, how are you guys promoting your podcasting? Is it extra so predominantly like a CPM-based type of spot purchase, or do you do much more type of combine — like do built-in campaigns the place you’re tapping into these social communities and leveraging that wider type of ecosystem that sits across the podcast itself? Or is it a little bit of a mixture?
Joyce:
Yeah, it’s a little bit of a mixture. The overwhelming majority of advertisements that you just’ll hear inside the podcast are host-read. We predict that may be a actually necessary differentiator for the podcast atmosphere as in comparison with radio and even music streaming. And so, we’ve tried to stay true to that.
I believe that extra companies and purchasers now, as they’re changing into acquainted with holistic audio shopping for, have gotten snug with shopping for podcasting for the mass audiences that they ship. So, we are inclined to see a mix of consciousness driving exercise, which are typically purchasers shopping for into our podcast bundles, which may be a bundled group of podcasts round a specific style.
So, it may be leisure or sport or business-
Lauren:
Contextual.
Joyce:
Contextual, yeah, that’s proper. And that’s them shopping for into a specific atmosphere after which they could prime it up with a few hero podcasts the place they’re getting a a lot deeper degree of integration with the host.
Lauren:
So, a combined method, it really works effectively. And inform us somewhat bit about what ARN are doing to assist make entrepreneurs notice the true potential of audio and demonstrating that by way of measurements.
So, you probably did clearly point out the neuroscience research that you just guys have executed, that are superb and likewise, Podsights. However do you have got any examples of a case research in podcasting the place there have been simply actually superb outcomes that helped you’re taking that measurement dialog to the subsequent degree?
Joyce:
Yeah, there’s a few examples that, I assume, the very first thing we do is we follow what we preach. So, for instance, Life Uncut is a part of the iHeart Podcast Community right here in Australia. And we’ve got labored with them to take their podcast from a purely podcast and social area right into a radio area.
Now, Life Uncut is ranked quantity 4 on the Australian podcast ranker, and it experiences one level, I wish to say -375 million downloads per thirty days. So, it’s big attain. And Brit and Laura are superb expertise, and their viewers responds very well to every part that they do as a result of they’re so real.
However after we built-in that podcast into our radio community, they skilled a 43% improve in listening simply within the first month of them being built-in. So, that in itself, actually reveals the ability of getting the 2 mediums working effectively collectively.
Then how that interprets into business outcomes for a consumer, we actually have a look at, we’ll lean into how we are able to create merchandise which can be going to lend themselves effectively to having the ability to leverage the a number of touchpoints {that a} consumer may use throughout the audio sphere.
So, for instance, we’ve got a product known as Dynamic Audio. We labored with A Million Adverts to create that as a world first that can be utilized throughout digital audio, however then additionally, used on broadcast radio. So, successfully what it does is deliver the personalization of digital into the medium of audio, and it’s what it says on the tin.
You principally create your script and then you definately’re capable of create, within the instance, I’m about to provide you, 3,875 completely different variations of 1 advert.
So, on this case research that we did for Coles Specific, we labored with them to develop quite a lot of variables inside the advert that might then be tailor-made distinctive to nevertheless the viewers member was listening to the content material.
So, as an illustration, in the event that they had been listening on a chilly day, then the advert would say one thing like, “Pop right into a Coles Specific for a espresso to heat you up.” In the event that they had been listening on a hotter day, it may be “Pop right into a Coles Specific to choose up a cool drink to chill you down.”
So, it tailored to the content material, the advert primarily based on regardless of the situations had been on the day. So, on account of that, we had been capable of measure a 70% improve within the readability with which the viewers heard that advert and understood the message.
They had been 88% extra trusted than the usual radio advert, and the consequence was a 91% improve in model likeability for Coles Specific. So, we had been capable of generate these outcomes and decide these outcomes by way of pre and post-campaign testing as you’d loads of model monitoring.
So, in the case of measurement, it’s a mix of demonstrating marketing campaign supply and that the consumer obtained what they paid for, but additionally, demonstrating the influence on the model and the enterprise by way of an attribution monitoring mannequin like Podsights.
Lauren:
And I fully agree with what you stated there about I believe these model uplift research in podcasting are so necessary as a result of it’s a medium that we use loads of the time to drive consciousness and consideration and likewise, model affinity.
So, having the ability to measure issues like a rise in belief or such as you stated, how folks noticed the model, or if that improved. These issues give us such a greater understanding of a marketing campaign’s supply than identical to a metric, like a CPM achieved or a attain or a frequency and issues like that.
Joyce:
That’s proper, and I believe that loads of manufacturers on the market have their very own media combine fashions or econometric fashions in place. So, they already know the hyperlink between driving model outcomes to driving a enterprise consequence.
So, it’s necessary for us to take each varieties of metrics into consideration as a result of one of the best entrepreneurs gained’t simply be counting on efficiency metrics to have the ability to drive their model. They’ll perceive that it’s the long-term profit that you just get with driving these model metrics mixed with the efficiency which provides you that speedy sugar hit of having the ability to see your product shift off cabinets, that’s going to provide you a extra sustainable consequence.
Lauren:
Fully agree there. Simply lastly, I needed to ask you, when you may depart entrepreneurs with one factor to think about when planning in audio, what would it not be? It’s a tough query.
Joyce:
It’s a onerous one. It’s robust. I truly suppose that it in all probability comes again to what I stated earlier; that audio as a channel is one thing that may solely add worth to the viewers you’re chatting with. Individuals are making, in some circumstances, an energetic option to devour a specific channel at a specific second in time.
We all know that folks have a tendency to decide on radio to connect with their group and know what’s happening and keep updated. They have an inclination to decide on podcasting as a option to enrich their lives, be taught one thing, or dive deep into a subject. They usually have a tendency to decide on music as a option to rework their temper.
So, we all know that all of them play a special position. And so, I believe total, it is necessary that entrepreneurs are serious about how every channel will be utilized for a selected motive and to match the intent of the listener. And subsequently, it’s about agnostic audio planning, not simply lumping all of it collectively.
Lauren:
Superior. Effectively, thanks a lot for coming in and chatting to us right now, Lauren. Some superb insights in there.
Joyce:
Thanks.
Lauren:
So, there you have got it, Darren; tech measurement and tips on how to body conversations with purchasers.
Darren:
That’s nice. Effectively, that’s the final on this sequence, celebrating the position of audio in advertising and marketing. A giant thanks to Josh Butt, Founder and Govt Producer; Michelle Lomas, Common Supervisor and Chief Strategist; and naturally, right now, my visitor is Lauren Deighton, Director of Media and Partnerships at Ampel, the audio expertise company.
Now, Lauren, one closing query, and I ask everybody this-
Lauren:
Yeah, for certain.
Darren:
What’s your favourite go-to podcast?
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